EP 342: We All Need to Be Heard with Jonathan

This is episode 342. We all need to be heard with Jonathan. Welcome to over it and on with it. I’m your host, Christine Hassler. And for over a decade, I’ve been a life coach, speaker and author each week. You’ll hear me work directly with a caller. As I coach them through a goal they want to accomplish or an obstacle they may be facing.

I’ll provide a blend of practical and spiritual advice as well as tangible actions you can apply to your own life. Now let’s get on with the episode. Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Thank you for joining me today. Today’s episode is a unique one because I really don’t do too much coaching. I got a sense when Jonathan and I first started talking that really the best thing I could do was listen.

And so I wanted to air this episode and give you an opportunity to hear what it sounds like just to really listen to someone. And I gave some ideas and I gave some coaching, but really I just held space for him and in some ways and reflected some things back to him. And I’ll talk more about why I did that. And when I do the breakdown at the end of the episode,

and especially for all you coaches out there, sometimes the best thing we can do for clients is just really to listen and reflect some things back and have a conversation with them and let them connect a lot of their own dots. You know, Jonathan does a lot of his own processing here and he’s come really far and it was really important for him to share.

And I think a lot of you are going to relate to different parts of his story. So as you’re listening to this call consider, did you feel seen and heard as a child? Did you spend a lot of time alone as a child and you still spend a lot of time alone today? Did you ever find that you can’t really trust love when things get too intimate or too vulnerable or too close?

You want to bail, but at the same time, you really long for love. So keep these questions in mind as you listen to my coaching session with Jonathan, Jonathan, welcome to the show. How can we help? Interesting. All right. So one of the first reason that I called you was I was going through like what they would call like a dark night of the soul,

right? Or like you say, expectation hangover. Yeah. So I was in, and my questions have changed since then. I actually wanted them to know more about my relationship, my relationship to myself, you know, masculine and feminine energy dynamics and how each one polarizing and all that stuff. But now my current question is more or less intimacy, intimacy and relationships,

and to myself as well. Okay. Can you give me a little context? So my dad left when I was 30 and was emotionally unavailable as far as when I would come to him. Like, this is how I feel. It’s you would die verdict and go the opposite route. He wasn’t super present in my life. I’m not saying, you know,

you know, he’s a great dad, but not there in the way that I would would have preferred. And then with my mom, she was very controlling. You know, can’t wear this, can’t say this, can’t listen to this, can’t watch this. I never had friends come over to the house growing up. I was homeschooled and so super controlling.

And there was, you know, those are my supervisors where you would probably, I would assume at a young age, you know, it’s hard for me to remember everything, but that was the source of love. Right. I was reaching out for that. And I knew probably at like age seven, honestly, that, that wasn’t going to be something that I would obtain from them early on.

So I think that’s where the blocks started. If that’s a way of saying where I, I couldn’t trust love. Does that make sense? Right. And how do you see that show? You’re in a you’re in a relationship now? No, no. Okay. I was in one and I, it’s not that I wasn’t trying to be vulnerable,

but I wasn’t communicating properly. If at all, you know, I was healing on my, like the inside of me and making all these great changes, but not able to communicate or even express how I feel. And I keep all of my relationships or intimate partners at arms length. Okay. Okay. Well, it makes sense that, you know,

when we look at attachment styles, that’s very typical of a, an avoidant attachment style. So you know, a lot here. So let me ask you this. What do you want, like, what do you want to be different about you and about how you relate and relationships? I think truthfully to be seen vulnerable and express yourself without judgment or risk of being,

I don’t want to say being hurt because relationships are there as a container for growth and to bring up all those things. So I’m into that, but that’s what I think it truly is to be able to have a life partner, right. To go through the world and experience things. Not so much on my own, because that was another thing growing up.

I was always alone. And even if I wasn’t, you know, a hundred percent, that’s how I felt inside, you know, not conforming in a way. Yeah. It’s, it’s a trust thing. And it’s, it’s hard, I’d say, because if you don’t trust people around you, you know, and you don’t really fully, truly trust yourself,

it’s going to be very hard for you to show up in a loving way in a relationship and receive that back. What don’t you trust about people around you? What are you afraid? They’re going to do Nothing specifically, right? It’s just over a period of time going through. I would assume. I haven’t, I don’t know an abandonment room when my father left,

it doesn’t feel like that. And he was, you know, she would talk to me and all this stuff, but it was more or less, oh, what’s that called? What’s the opposite of unconditional love, Conditional, Conditional, very conditional. It was very conditional. So, you know, like I bought you this, so now I expect this or,

you know, I showed up on this day, but It sounds like, Yeah, for sure. And then with my mom, it was more or less. I couldn’t, you know, if I wasn’t lying, she wouldn’t believe me. And if I was lying, the repercussions were the same, you know, so yeah. And it was a very volatile,

you know, and super controlling. And I didn’t spend much time at home and I just kind of figured out life on my own, if that makes sense to the best that I did. Makes sense. So you’re doing an excellent job of being vulnerable and communicating with me. Yeah. Well, it’s not hard. It’s Not hard with other, So it’s only hard when there’s intimacy.

It’s only hard when the person is getting close. Yeah. So, okay. It would more or less be, I feel like I have more to lose. I would assume. I mean, these are things on a subconscious level that I haven’t totally been able to figure it out. Right. Well, there’s a couple of things that are coming to mind.

So there’s dad, but let’s talk about mom first. So are you in heterosexual relationships? Are you dating women? Yes. Okay. So obviously relationship with both of our parents are gonna affect your intimate relationships, no matter what our gender sexual orientation, whatever. But when we just look at all right, you’re a man dating women, your relationship with your mother is going to have a pretty big impact.

And you felt this wasn’t your words. So you can correct me if I’m wrong, but I can imagine that if we have a controlling strict mom, there was a sense of judgment and rejection you felt from her at times. Would you agree with that? Yeah. So when you’re with a woman and you said the word subconscious, there’s so much running on the subconscious level,

you listen to this show, you know, that 95% of our behaviors, thoughts, feelings, actions are driven by the subconscious mind. So with a woman, especially when it’s getting close or vulnerable, cause I can imagine there. You may not remember, but there are probably times when you went to your mom vulnerable or sad or emotional or whatever. And maybe sometimes she was there,

but maybe sometimes there was rejection or there was sometimes you just need to snap out of it or bottom line, you didn’t get what you needed from her. So subconsciously, Subconsciously, you’re looking at the woman that you’re with and you see mom, you time-travel in that moment. And the little boy in you is like, this isn’t safe. I’m going to be judged.

I could get controlled and lose myself. Cause there’s two fears, right? There’s I’m going to get controlled and lose myself. And that doesn’t sound good to you. And then there’s, I could be judged and rejected. So it just doesn’t feel safe. So you hit trust. I think, yes. There’s a trust thing. And more over, it just doesn’t feel safe because you didn’t experience that kind of safety with your mother who was your primary female relationship.

So even if you’re with a woman who isn’t necessarily like her at all, subconsciously you’re kind of projecting how it was with mom onto her. So that keeping them at an arms length isn’t because you don’t want love. You probably want love very badly. You know, you want that connection, but there’s this little boy in there who has this protector part in front of him.

That’s like, oh, I don’t know about this. Like this didn’t go so well with mom. So we’re going to be better off if we just withhold. Does that make sense? Yeah, of course. Yeah. It is interesting though, because I’m aware of it. Right, Right. So that I try not to act on it, but it’s just like a subconscious survival pattern.

And I am noticing that I get into relationship. Like we’re all wounded, so I don’t want to put anything on anybody or say that there shouldn’t be this or should be that I’m not into that, but more or less, I kind of see the same patterns. Not so much as when you say same, sensei’s different person. Right. Definitely different people in different moments,

but there are very similar traits. And I’m curious as to why And the women that you date or that you exist. It’s opposite of my mom, but I know what you’re saying. I ended up dating. I don’t want to say I’m dating mom, but there is aspects, you know, not that it’s comfortable for me in those moments, but I’m sure there’s something there to,

What are some of the traits that you see over and over again? So they come to me, I don’t reach out. I don’t go out and like, look for anything like that. And I took, how, what is it called celibacy? I just took two years to myself, no relationships, no dating or anything like that. I moved,

I actually was homeless for awhile. I quit my job. I gave up because I wanted to make a change. I was 45 pounds heavier, you know, alcoholic. And I hated my job. So I just decided I’ll give up everything and try to figure out what it is that I’m searching for, what I’m seeking for it. And I actually got really close to myself like,

oh geez. You know, and to not, you know, obviously I’m throwing at us as a lifelong journey, but I got to see like, who is Jonathan? And what is, what is his aspirations and what is the bias and deep down, that’s all I really want is like, what I assume everyone wants is to be loved and seen and not judged and just in that container.

But it also seemed like all the people that I was surrounding myself with have the same, you know, patterns of diluting, whatever it was that they were going through internally based on, you know, substances or, you know, sets whoever and you know, not dealing with it. And I personally always been really interested and just like, oh, like,

how are you feeling? You know, but I’ve never found the people aren’t insurance. I haven’t been surrounded by people who have that same mindset and it’s been one of those things where it kind of resonates back to me that I want to be authentic in the way that I show up in the world. And it keeps, I don’t find the same authenticity and others Well,

but that might be part of your, come here, go away energy. So I hear what you’re saying, and I really acknowledge you for the choices that you’ve made and the journey you went on to really discover who you are. And I hear that desire to connect intimately, but there’s this conscious desire to be authentic and have more vulnerable relationships with people.

But again, there’s that hurt little boy with this big protector part in front of him, that’s like, Hmm, I don’t know about people. People aren’t really that safe people. Aren’t that really trustworthy. So you’re in what I like to call competing intentions, like a part of you that wants authentic connection and vulnerability and all that. And then a part of you,

that’s not quite sure that you can really trust it. So circling back to the women. So I just want to make sure I heard you correctly. So you have a tendency to date or attract women who do some kind of numbing in terms of like drinking or sex or whatever to numb their feelings. Was that one of the traits that you said that No,

that’s more so just people in general friendships and people that I surround myself with or surrounded at the time, but yeah, there is an aspect. So my previous relationship, I don’t want to talk too much about her, but just for her personal. So, you know, it’s, I used to be a chameleon because like I said, I didn’t,

I didn’t have friends or anything like that. I just needed to fit in basically, which I was really good at. But early on in that developmental phase of my life, I realized that that is not going to work for me. I can’t please everybody. And it wasn’t working like this. Isn’t who I am. And I felt resistance to that almost instantly.

So I tried that for a few years and I was just like a 10 to figure out a better way in my last relationship. That was super brief, but extremely impactful. And there’s more of a list, but I’m not okay with who I am on the inside. So I expect you to make me feel like that. Or at least that wasn’t how I felt inside of the relationship.

That was more or less what I was able to figure out outside of it. Right. So I was able to take a step back and look and be like, oh, what happened? How did you feel? Awesome. I felt pretty good. She’s an amazing woman, but we didn’t communicate, like there was no communication on my part or her part,

which was weird. What didn’t you communicate Feelings? You know, like I was scared, like how could I care about this person so quickly, so fast? You know, that’s not normal or at least not my experience. So what did you do? Pull away, put up walls withhold. Yeah. I drifted not sure. Not intentionally. That is just how it went down.

I’m both of our parts. We had a decent amount of communication in the beginning, but there’s deep, deep wounds in both of our, you know, our past and why wasn’t totally a quit. And this was five months ago now. So I wasn’t conscious of, you know, like I’ve been doing the personal development kind of stuff if you want to qualify as that,

my whole life. Right. So going through life’s experiences, but I wasn’t conscious until five months ago where I’m like, okay, this needs to change. You know, if I’m going to be able to be and have that conscious relationship that I desire so much or with another, I need to change something about myself. I can’t expect people to change me or try to change them or anything else like that.

It’s an impossible feat. Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. And just out of curiosity, how does it feel to you to just be heard with me right now? How does that feel For you? How sounds? Because I have like a modern, not a monotone voice, but it doesn’t, it’s like right. Mid rings,

right. It’s not high, it’s not low. And so when I talk, I would usually be talked over or not listened to, to the point where I actually had someone tell me something when I was younger. Like, Hey, you know, you let people talk over you all the time or interrupt you, which is fine, but it’s nice.

So thank you for that. Yeah. Tell me how it feels Unfamiliar.<inaudible> see if you can find a feeling word It’s tough. It feels good though. It feels good. It feels like respect in a sense. Being heard, being seen. It feels like we ain’t seen. So is it starting on? This is really, isn’t a feeling word,

but I’m wondering if this word resonates with you, does it feel safe? Yes. Hmm. What part of it? Any part of it? Doesn’t is there any part of it that doesn’t feel safe? No, not necessarily, but I also, I think it’s like my, I have been following you for this five months. Right. And I know how you are,

so they’re starting to like this buildup thing and like, oh, that’s a trustful person. Right. It wouldn’t be like a stranger, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and we wouldn’t want to pour our heart out to a stranger either, but with someone that you’re dating or an intimate relationships, this is, this is what you need.

And part of healing, we’ll call it an avoidant attachment style, just to kind of put words on it. But part of healing, that part of you that wants to keep everyone at arms length, but at the same time desires, closeness, like we all do. But at the same time likes being alone, you know, it’s like this bounce back,

bounce back. It really is about leaning into intimacy in relationships, which is why I’m so proud of you for booking a session here, because that’s a wonderful step in the healing direction. Because if you were not, as far as you are with healing, a lot of this, you would never book a call with me. You would just listen and just think you could do it all on your own.

So you’ve made some tremendous progress and what my senses in terms of what you’re calling in. So you mentioned masculine, feminine. I have a feeling that again, because of mom stuff that the women that you’re attracting, especially cause you’re saying they’re pursuing you are a little bit more in that masculine energy, a little bit more in that. And, and for women that are in the quote unquote masculine energy is more about having a protective energy.

It’s more about having this part of them, that controls things that get things done that just protects them. So they’re there their feminine side, the super open, vulnerable, creative part. That’s often the invitation for the masculine to open his heart. Isn’t really there. So I, I love the ownership that you’re taking in relationship. And it’s two people.

I think that you’re, you’re, you know, attracting women that aren’t necessarily in their healthy, feminine, because if you were with someone that really was in her healthy, feminine, I bet you’d feel a lot safer leaning in and a lot safer, really opening up because it would feel differently to you energetically and that feminine. I’m definitely, definitely my feminine myself,

more or less that flowy state. Right. So if you want, you know, it depends the kind of relationship you want, if you really want to experience that. And you probably had to be to balance out the polarity with your mom because your mom took on a very masculine role. I mean, she had to fill the shoes of both parents,

right. And dad just was there, but not there. So a lot of times, and I see this a lot with men, if mom’s in a masculine role and it’s more or less single mom, then the son will go more into that flowy energy. And for you, it sounds to me like what you’d like, and you can correct me if I’m wrong,

but it sounds to me like you really would love to be in a relationship where you can hold more of that masculine pole. And again, masculine doesn’t mean controlling domineering, oppressive. It doesn’t, it doesn’t mean that at all. Yeah. Structure really being able to hold space, presence, that type of thing, you know, kind of linear ways of thinking.

And it sounds, it feels to me like being with someone who really can hold that nurturing, open, loving space and be that invitation for you to be vulnerable would be deeply healing for you. Because like you said, you feel safe with me because for the past five months I’ve been an invitation, right. I’ve been that space of, you know,

you can feel my openness or whatever you feel for me, there’s a sense of, you know, I can talk to her. And in order for you to draw on that kind of woman, you’ve got to go more into your masculine. Yeah. I know. What’s tough about it. Well, I had a bunch of limiting beliefs that I wasn’t totally aware of.

So like we grew up in, on welfare or whatever like that. And like my dad, for an example, I was like, Hey, can I get allowance? Because you know, people around me are getting all ons. And he was like, yeah, sure. That’s what that’ll work. And then it was like five bucks a week or something like that.

And then he would come and visit me on Wednesdays. And, you know, I would ask him, then I stopped asking. And eventually once it got up to the total of a hundred dollars, I just was like, look I’m never gonna to receive this. It’s just not going to happen. And so I had this sense of lack. Both of my parents never had money.

Right. They make, they make it, but just make it. And so my whole life, I was like, oh, I’m just not going to have any money. And I’m not willing to put myself out in a corporation. And so my soul I’ve already tried that, you know, I’ve done all the construction. I was in the military for a while.

I did all these different things. So I’ve had many jobs just trying to figure it out. And none of it, I was like, okay, money’s not going to give me happiness. And so being in the structured format, like societal things, wasn’t for me, I just knew that that’s none of that’s going to bring me happiness and I want to be happy.

So I need to branch out and find what fills my cup. It’s metaphorically obviously. And I’m going to be pleased. And I decided to not, you know, I am abundant, I am wealthy, all those things. I have the relationships that I need in the teachers in my life. And I at a young age was so very spiritual. It was all Christian,

right. Christian based with all the private schools and all the, you know, the homeschooling groups and things of that nature. So I had a good sense of God and I actually reconnected the source after this because which has been awesome. It’s been amazing. And that’s, that was where the ceiling started and where I was able to find out more of like,

so the structure and what I’ve been the story about what I’ve been telling myself and who I actually am and remembering who I am and what I’m, I don’t know what I’m here to do, but, you know, but just the way that my brain conceptualizes things, and maybe I can be that guiding light in that situation as well. And in doing so I found that I was way into my feminine,

like you said, and that I needed to try to find out what that masculine structure feels like. So shouts out to a Traver bomb. I’m a part of that civilized group. So I’ve been in that recently. Yeah. And I read that book as well. Yeah. Wonderful. And so, you know, you know, you’re already well on your way.

And so my, my biggest encouragement to you is it sounds like it’s really healing for you to be heard. So having people in your life that, you know, and I love that you’re in, in the community of men with Trevor that you’re in. And I don’t know if it’s maybe working with a coach or something like that, or just really setting the intention to have friends,

especially men that you can really talk to them. Like you’re talking to me, you can share a lot of this stuff because what I feel is been the most powerful thing for you today in this conversation is just you being able to speak in someone really hearing you and listening is deeply healing for you, Jonathan deeply healing and deeply important. And that kind of more feminine,

flowy energy. I don’t necessarily, I wouldn’t necessarily say that you’re, you know, more in your feminine. I would say that that feeling of not feeling safe has left you very untethered. Like it’s just left you feeling like, where are my feet? You know, where, where, where my roots, like, where do I, where do I really belong?

And that’s, that’s more kind of that wobbliness that you feel. And my suggestion to you, in addition to just really finding people that you can be authentic with, cause they’re out there, you know, part of you, you hit the nail on the head with mentioning limiting beliefs, part of how we bring those people into our life is truly believe that they’re out there and really put that intention in and start surrounding ourselves with,

with them, but also really anchoring yourself and rooting into this is who I am. It doesn’t matter. Like you don’t know your career purpose or any of those kinds of things. That’s not who we are. Anyway, this is who I am. This is what I believe. This is what I desire. This is what I want. This is what I’m committed to.

I would even have you maybe write out some of those things, you know, this is, this is who I am. These are the words to describe me. These are my values. These are the characteristics that define me, you know, these, this is what I want to create in my life. And start getting a little more clear about who you are and about what you truly desire in your life and start to get a little more rooted and grounded in that.

Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. I’m also enrolled for your guys’s elementary. Oh, amazing. That will take care of so much. That will take care of so much. And I know we talked about a lot of things today. I hope I feel like I didn’t really answer any, you know, specific burning question, but the biggest thing that,

you know, I really feel from you is you’re on this, you know, and you know, this, I’m just telling you things that, you know, you’re in a phase where there aren’t necessarily a lot of answers. It’s not like let’s connect these dots and do this process. And then that will be healed. It’s more of a, it’s more of a,

you coming home to yourself. Like you really finding out who you are because with dad leaving and with mom being very controlling, my sense is you missed a developmental phase and you’ll learn about developmental phases in Elementum where you really got to know who is Jonathan? Like who, who am I, what do I care about? What do I even want? And that,

that seems to be where you are right now. And I know that in those times we kind of want solutions or we want answers or something like that. But I just want to give you encouragement and permission to just be in this phase of, you know, what, I’m in a discovery phase, I’m an exploration phase. And I’m going to really use the circumstances of my life,

whether another relationship comes in or a friendship or whatever it is to sort of reflect to me where I am. You know, let’s say that you start dating a woman and she starts acting controlling. You’re like, okay, great. There’s some mom healing to do. I’m gonna use that as feedback and just really stay in this place of exploration without being super committed,

to figuring everything out right now. Oh, absolutely. I don’t. I don’t, yeah. I’m not interested in having the answers for anything. I just want to experience it to the best that I can and offer basically what you’re doing right now to me, to others. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The incurred thing. That was interesting. Yeah.

That’s. I was aware of that. I just didn’t know. I haven’t been in a container like this to where I was able to feel that. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It’s deeply healing. And since you’re joining Elementum and year, you know, pursuing coaching, it’s, that’s one of the things that you’ll learn is that sometimes as a coach,

we connect thoughts and we have a hot moment. So we take people through quiet processes and sometimes really what someone needs most of all is to be heard and reflected back to. And that can be just as transformational than some breakthrough process, Just being a listener, Just being a listener. And, and I just want to reflect back to you that I feel so much emotional maturity from you and so much insight and so much vulnerability and just a willingness,

you know, given your past. Yeah. You’re so willing. You’re so willing given your past, you could have gone down a much different road. So it really shows me your emotional and spiritual maturity. And I think that, you know, you really are not. I think I know that you really are starting to trust yourself in a deeper way.

And as you said, you know, towards the beginning of our call, that’s where it all begins. So trust yourself, trust where you are trust. You’re not broken trust. You’re, you know, calling in the right communities right now to really help you grow. And like you’ve, you’ve crossed over a massive threshold and the last several years, and now it’s just about letting all the awareness that you have start to become embodied.

But I do want you to practice, you know, getting clear on some of your values, your traits, all that kind of stuff, but also really practice feeling grounded and just going out in the morning or, well, anytime a day, putting your bare feet in the ground and like feeling yourself, rooting down to see if you can bring some of that,

more of that masculine energy, like into your body and say to yourself, like I’m home. Even if it’s not physically where you want to be like really coming home to yourself. Yeah. Okay. Like somatically feel the fear of what’s happened. Okay. Yes, Yes. Yeah. I did a little bit of that last night with trust Because I was trying to figure out what my question was specifically because it had changed.

And then yeah, I was able to try to embody that trust feeling, which was super awkward to spot something on GST, but you know, but it felt right. Yeah. What’s interesting to me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I hope this helped a little bit. Yeah. He had a fuck. Thank you, Jonathan, for sharing. So vulnerably you’re actually very good at communicating and sharing vulnerably.

As I said in the beginning of the show, this was a session where I didn’t do a lot of coaching. I got the intuitive nudge very early on in the session just to hear him not to try to connect dots, not to get him in his head. Maybe give him some feedback here or there, but really just hear him. And you heard when I asked him halfway through you,

how does it feel just to be heard? And he was like, it feels unfamiliar, but eventually we got to, it feels really safe. And I don’t know if you noticed, but his tone changed and he softened a little bit and he dropped down a little bit out of his head and just kept opening up and kept sharing more. And that’s really what he needed.

He didn’t need me to interrupt him. He didn’t need me to process them. He didn’t need me to say something, mind blowing some aha moment. He just really needed me to hear him. And that’s part of how he heals is being around people that just hear him, that don’t interrupt him, that don’t try to control him, that don’t try to divert him that don’t try to make it about them,

but just really, really here. And there’s a couple things I just wanted to dive a little deeper in. Now I mentioned the avoidant attachment style. We’ve talked about that on the show a lot. And when you have that avoidant attachment style, really one of the best ways to heal it as in relationship is in practicing intimacy. So a tip that I give Jonathan or any of you that have that,

especially if you have a history of being interrupted, whether or not you have the avoidant attachment style or not, but when you’re in any kind of relationship, especially romantic relationship, and it’s hard for you to express and it’s hard for you to get things out and you often feel like you’re interrupted or judged or any of those things to utilize the talking stick.

I’m sure a lot of you have heard of the talking stick, but going to your partner, whoever you’re having the conversation with and say, Hey, I really want to share things, some things with you. And I’d like to use the talking stick. So when I’m holding the stick, I’m the only one talking. And when I feel complete, I’ll hand it to you.

And when you’re holding the stick, then you’re the only one talking. It’s a great practice to put in place. Like I said, if you have a hard time getting things out or you feel like you’re going to be interrupted, or you feel like you’re going to be judged, that’s a great thing to put into your relationship because oftentimes we interrupt each other a lot and we there’s often one person who’s maybe the more assertive one,

the more vocal one. And then there’s often another person who tends to retract. And so talking sick is a great remedy for that. Because as long as you have the stick or the pillow or the cup or whatever, it doesn’t have to be a stick. It’s just any object that you’re holding that you’re designated as this is when I’m holding this only I’m talking.

It really gives that, that sense of permission of, you know, this is my turn to really, really be heard. And then to also practice reflective, listening, or perception, checking with your partner or anyone you’re having this kind of conversation with. So if I was using the talking stick or talking candle or whatever, we, whatever I’m holding my hand,

once I received it, if, if Steph for example, was holding it and then passed it to me, once I received it first, I’d repeat back to what he, what he said. I said, this is what I heard you say, is that accurate? And he’d say yes or no. And then I could give my feedback. And when we really slow down communication like that,

it really builds trust and safety. So just put your attachment style aside, if you don’t know what I’m talking about with attachment styles, it doesn’t even matter. This is good for anyone in any relationship because we get sloppy in communication. We time-travel meaning our inner children get triggered and we just end up putting up walls or getting to a mash or saying things we don’t mean,

or, you know, you know, all the communication breakdowns, you know what yours are. And so just implementing these two things, the talking stick and the reflective listening or perception checking really can be a game changer. It’s just like slow down. It’s kind of like eating. We all went on to say we all, a lot of us including me eat too fast.

And we know that if we chew our food slowly, it’s better for our digestion. It’s better. Our jaw, it’s better for our metabolism is better for overall health and wellbeing, but sometimes we’re just eating so unconsciously, we’re just chewing really, really fast. We just need to slow down both in our eating and in our communication. The other thing I really talked about was masculine,

feminine energy. And you know, it’s so not black and white. When you talk about masculine, feminine energy. So not gender specific, there’s so much to it. It’s a complex topic. And I don’t like necessarily saying this is masculine. This is feminine, but you could see where the polarity dynamic was a little off with Jonathan because he had a mom that was more in that she had to be,

or she chose to be more in that masculine, energetic. He kind of put more into that feminine, energetic, but not really the empowered, feminine, more the submissive feminine, more of like, okay, mom just has to tell me what to do. And so he sort of developed this flowy energy. So my coaching him was like, get grounded,

get rooted, find your tribe, you know, write out who you are, write out what you care about. Write out where you’re committed to because commitment is a massive masculine quality. And again, we all have masculine and feminine inside of us, all of us, every single one of us, no matter how you identify. And it’s beautiful to know the healthy attributes of both.

So Jonathan’s in a great place. He’s an exploration place. He know it. Wasn’t the time to do a big process with him. He’s, he’s exploring things. He’s talking about things. He’s letting things settle. He’s letting things marinate. And that’s a beautiful place to be. It’s a beautiful place to be. And as he shared in the beginning,

he had just gotten out of her dark night of the soul. He’s made a lot of changes. So it’s really just time for him to integrate and embody some of the awarenesses, nothing urgent to go out and try to heal or fix. You know, sometimes we just go through phases where we’re just talking it out. We’re just processing it. There’s no big question.

There’s no big answers and that’s a beautiful place to be. All right, everybody. That’s the show for today. Thank you so much! Sending you so much love and many blessings until next time. Thank you for listening to over it and on with it. I love hearing from you. So please post your comments or questions at christinehassler.com slash podcast. That’s also the place you can sign up to receive coaching from me in an upcoming episode.

And if you love this show, please share it and subscribe in iTunes. You can find all my social media handles and sign up to be part of my community at christinehassler.com until next week here’s to getting over it and on with it much love and many blessings.